A parting shot

Whether it's calling for the trade to "take the moral lead" and introduce polycarbonates in all pubs, or speaking out against irresponsible premises, Chris Allison has never been afraid to give his opinion.

Now after four-and-a-half years as the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) lead on licensing, he is moving on to take up a lead role in ACPO's counter terrorism unit.

The Publican listened to his parting views on the trade.

You recently called for more legislation to make sure the trade acts responsibly. Do you not think there are enough powers already and what form would this legislation take? ​

CA​: There is a problem in our society with people drinking to excess. What we need is a more holistic approach. The first is cultural change, which is for the government to deal with. The second strand is the trade acting responsibly.

I'm not a killjoy, I'm not about trying to stop people from drinking at all. I like a drink myself. But it's about doing it sensibly.

The [Home Office-commissioned] KPMG report makes fairly dismal reading for the trade there and I think there should be some form of independent oversight into the trade, properly funded by the industry.

And then we can bring that code of practice more into line with the Licensing Act. Surely we should be able to have a national condition and if a licensee breaks that then they don't have a licence.

[The KPMG report, which was published last month, set out a range of tough new licensing conditions as part of a clampdown on irresponsible venues.] ​

The KPMG report does seem to focus on town-centre, high-volume venues. Do you recognise the distinction between traditional local pubs? ​

CA​: I fully recognise that there is a cross-section of licensed premises out there delivering a cross-section of activity for the cross-section of the public.

In the report the off-trade seems to get off lightly, yet there are many examples of irresponsible promotions in supermarkets. How do you explain this? ​

CA​: There is the whole issue of price and availability and that is something that needs to be looked at across the sector.

I know you like to throw stones at me, but you also quite like to throw stones at each other where the on-trade is blaming the off-trade and vice versa.

It's very difficult to work out who is accountable and who is responsible. The reality is this is a responsibility for all of us.

Do you think there should be restrictions on the off-trade? ​

CA​: No, I'm not saying that because how do you restrict it in the same way? In the on-trade there is an immediate effect on crime and disorder as a result of people drinking far too much.

Whereas, if people buy alcohol from a supermarket at a slightly cheaper price there isn't necessarily an immediate effect.

There is if someone drinks six cans of lager at home and then goes out to the pub to drink one and starts causing trouble?​

CA​: Yes there is - but that's why we are saying as ACPO that we need to look at the entire thing holistically and not start blaming each other.

What's your view on the Licensing Act? ​

CA​: We are supportive of 90 per cent of the Licensing Act. If you think what we had before we only had the nuclear option. If a premises was out of order, we had to go for revocation. With the Licensing Act, we have a far better way of managing the night-time economy.

Our concerns then were that the Act, by extending hours, would create more problems than it solves. It was sold on the fact that the Act would bring a massive reduction in crime and disorder. Well, it hasn't.

Are you a fan of alcohol disorder zones? Do you think many will come into force? ​

CA​: We were concerned about the bureaucracy that would come with them. If I'm honest I don't see these being used regularly.

But we are spending a disproportionate amount of our resources on one small area and our view is the fee structure itself should be changed and if you do it right you can target the premises that are more likely to cause the problems.

You are a keen advocate of polycarbonates. Why should all pubs have them? ​

CA​: This is a really complicated one. The bottom line is I think the trade has a moral responsibility here and I think the direction of travel for the trade is that they ought to move to polycarbonates. If it saves the sight of one person or stops someone being disfigured for life surely that is the right thing to do.

Why do we drink out of glass? We drink out of glass because it was the first thing that was available. If polycarbonate was the first thing available we'd be drinking out of polycarbonate now.

Surely it's more pleasant to drink out of glass? I think at least a few thousand CAMRA (Campaign for Real Ale) members would argue that… ​

CA​: But again this is back to what people are used to. You only drink beer out of glass because that's what you are used to and that's how you were taught to drink beer.

I prefer it to plastic…​

CA​: But the plastic things are changing. The polycarbonate that is available now is very different to the polycarbonate that was available some time ago.

There's a lot of pressure on the licensed trade at the moment. Are you sympathetic towards pubs? ​

CA: I'm aware of all the issues and I'm not anti the licensed trade. I like going out, I like having a drink and I like being entertained in the evenings.

How do you feel about leaving your position at ACPO as lead on licensing? ​

CA​: It's been a fascinating period and I've been very privileged. The underlying problem is our culture, and that culture is going to take a number of generations to change. All we're doing every night of the week as police is putting a sticking plaster over this problem.

If we go back 20 years people wouldn't drink to get paralytic. We are now at the other end of the spectrum where unless you are paralytically drunk you are not really one of the gang.

We have to rebalance that. We've done it with other things in society and we need to do it with alcohol.