Grogan's run

John Grogan gives Adam Withrington his views on smoking, Sky and a whole lot more.

MP for Selby John Grogan is the current chairman of the All-party Parliamentary Beer Group, the biggest cross-party political group in Parliament. He was the chairman of the group's licensing panel and has been a major figure in the drawing up of the 2003 Licensing Act.

In an exclusive interview with The Publican, Mr Grogan gives his views on the pressing issues of the day and spells out the Beer Group's plans for the next 12 months.

Smoking​

I think that so long as the trade is seen to be treating the issue seriously then it is unlikely there will be a complete ban.

There's no reason to think John Reid, the secretary of state for health, thinks differently to Alan Milburn [the previous health secretary who supported the voluntary approach].

We live in an age where we are concerned about smoking and passive smoking, so you have got to address the issue. Nick Bish and the Charter Group have done a lot of good work.

I think the great British public's instinct is that if you want to eat or drink in a non-smoky atmosphere, that should be available, but to ban it would be taking it a bit too far. The trade has that in its favour but if it is seen to be contemptuous of these concerns it may struggle.

The Smoking Charter is a step in the right direction but it is going to need to be seen to make a lot more progress.

The success of the Charter Group is being taken seriously in Parliamentary circles but given the nature of the debate people will demand more.

There are a lot of backbenchers from all parties for whom smoking is a big issue and there are moves in Parliament to ban it. These actions will get press attention but the worst thing for the trade to do is batten down the hatches.

I think the industry would have to play it very badly to provoke tough legislation. I don't think many ministers are spoiling for a fight on this one. The difficulty for both government and the trade is that while they are trying to persuade pubs to invest in ventilation and filtration equipment, many licensees will feel that if there is a likelihood of a ban soon, why should they invest in the equipment?

Sky's pricing policy​

When Parliament comes back next month we are going to concentrate on the Sky issue. There is momentum behind the campaign against the Sky price hikes, which I think are of a different order to those of the past.

In previous years you got the feeling that Sky had probably sweet-talked some of the major pub companies and there was a fairly lukewarm response from them. This time I think it has overstepped the mark.

Drinks promotions​

The Cabinet Office will soon be releasing the National Strategy on Alcohol and I think that now there is a will within the industry to do something, particularly on unreasonable drinks discounting.

The "tipping point" has gone regarding irresponsible drinks promotions. The idea that you can carry on regardless with these promotions is not politically on.

I think the government will expect the industry to come forward with credible proposals on irresponsible drinks promotions. The proposals put forward by the British Beer & Pub Association seem to be a good stab at it.

Ten per cent of pubs and bars sully the name of 90 per cent of the industry and I understand that it's unfair to penalise the good operators. But is it acceptable to charge £5 and say drink as much as you want? I would say no.

If you don't have a national set of guidelines which are set in stone by the time local authorities have their licensing policies sorted, you will have 300 local policies.

The choice isn't between doing nothing on this and having a set of national guidelines. It is between having a one set of guidelines or 300.

Levy on policing​

I think the trade is right to resist the idea that if your town has a vibrant nightlife, there should be a tax on each premises. How would you levy it in a fair way?

There are analogies with the policing and football argument. Should the football clubs pay for the policing outside the grounds? It's the same in a way with nightlife. On the whole the costs are outside the premises. But where does that argument end?

Lots of activities generate policing costs in the wider community. If you say that when you organise an event in the future, you are going to have to pay for the policing costs for anything that might happen in the hours before and after the event, it does seem strange. You do pay your taxes, after all.

Late-night violence​

At the moment there is a section in the law which states that if someone is involved in pub-related violence, an exclusion order can be imposed on him or her banning them from the pub. But it is very rarely used.

In the Liquor Licensing White Paper it was suggested that this power would be strengthened and that magistrates would have to consider such an exclusion order every time someone was involved in a fight in a pub. But the issue just disappeared off the agenda. So we, along with the National Association of Licensed House Managers and Pubwatch, are going to push this.

We have sought a meeting in the next couple of months with Chris Leslie, a minister in Lord Falconer's (the secretary of state for constitutional affairs) office. We will see then if this is still government policy and if so how it will progress.

Rural pubs​

I would like to see an academic survey on rural rate relief - particularly as local councils are taking over licensing as well as rate relief. Then we could see which councils have been the best in using those powers and which have been best in promoting their local pubs.

It would be good to try and identify those and promote some good practice. Because you can then go to local councils and say to them, why aren't you doing such and such, that council X is doing?

Licensing​

I have been talking to a lot of the civil servants at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and they want to make the Licensing Act work.

It's one thing passing a law, it is quite another implementing it. They know a lot rides on making it work. The last thing the government wants on January 1, 2005, is for 3,000 pubs to shut because they haven't applied for a new licence or "grandfathered" over their old one. The department will be keeping a close eye on it.

The problem is that there's this gap now, with the act having gone through Parliament, people keep asking what's happening and when's it changing?

The British Institute of Innkeeping is running nine regional courses on licensing to explain these changes in the law.